Head Inside Mental Health
Todd Weatherly, Therapeutic Consultant and behavioral health expert hosts #Head-Inside Mental Health featuring conversations about mental health and substance use treatment with experts from across the country sharing their thoughts and insights on the world of behavioral health care.
Head Inside Mental Health
Why Aftercare Is Where Recovery Truly Begins with Nico Dorn
The finish line of treatment isn’t the finish line of recovery—it’s the starting gun for real life. We sit down with behavioral health leader Nico Dorn, Executive Director of Release Recovery Austin, to unpack how transitional living, coaching, and community convert clinical gains into durable daily habits that actually hold under stress. From morning routines and medication refills to friendships, classes, and cravings, we map the busy, imperfect days where recovery either sticks or slips.
Nico walks us through a clear framework grounded in safety, connection, and purpose. We explore how sober living homes and aftercare programs feed critical real-world data back to clinicians— Who showed up? Who isolated? ho ate—and why that feedback loop prevents small bumps from becoming full-blown crises. We tackle a hard truth about the system: insurance often ignores housing and coaching even though these supports are the backbone of long-term outcomes. So we talk budgeting for a year, not a month, and why a four-to-eight-month stay with tapered support gives clients time to stabilize, rebuild, and launch.
Families get a spotlight too. Many want information but truly need help with letting go. We share practical ways to set boundaries, tolerate discomfort, and move from rescuing to coaching. As discharge nears and treatment fatigue sets in, we show how to shift from authority to ally—keeping alumni connected through check-ins, dinners, and peer groups. The goal isn’t perfection; it’s resilience: bumps, not crises; early calls, not emergency rooms. And at the heart of it all is therapeutic alliance and meaning. When clients find an anchor—school, work, service, running, 12-step, art—they gain a reason strong enough to say no when life inevitably tempts their sobriety.
If you care about substance use recovery, mental health support, and what truly works after treatment, this conversation offers a candid, systems-level view with human warmth. Subscribe, share this episode with someone who needs a next-step plan, and leave a review to help more families find real-world guidance.
Hello folks, thanks for joining us on Head Inside Mental Health featuring conversations about mental health and substance use treatment with experts, advocates, and professionals from across the country sharing their thoughts and insights on the world of behavioral health care. Broadcasting on WPVM 1037, the voice of Ashwell, independent commercial-free radio. I'm Todd Weatherly, your host, therapeutic consultant, and behavioral health expert. My guest today is friend and co-conspirator in the Make the World a Better Place Club, Nico Dorn. Nico is a behavioral health expert executive with 15 years of experience designing and operating substance use and mental health treatment programs in public and private sectors as well as higher education. He's the executive director of Released Recovery Austin and helps lead strategic growth for release recovery services in New York and Texas, which include transitional living in four cities and two outpatient clinics. Nico holds a master's in education and human or a master's of education in human development studies from Vanderbilt University and serves on the board of the Young Adult Transition Association. His work focuses on building durable systems of care and helping clients rebuild lives they can be passionate about by integrating academics, vocation, health, clinical work, and social connection into a holistic recovery model. He's also very active within the Release Recovery Foundation, which provides more than one million annually in treatment scholarships. In addition to his professional work, Nico hosts national events that combine endurance running with mental health advocacy. He lives also with his wife and children and is an avid runner himself. Nico, welcome to the show.
SPEAKER_02:Thank you, Todd. I appreciate you inviting me. And just want to start by saying thank you for bringing this to the world as a North Carolinian through and through. I appreciate bringing out to the community.
SPEAKER_01:Absolutely. Well, uh, you know, us care us OG Carolinians have to stick together. Um I, you know, I and and I've always known this about you, of course, but you know, I read your bio and it's not it's not too, you know, a lot of people will talk about their credentials and the experience they've had and all these other things, but it's clear that one of the things that you're passionate about is the systems. It's the piece that brings all this kind of therapeutic work together, especially where it meets the ground, which I think can be the hardest to manage. Like logistically speaking, transitional living programs and sober living programs, you're keeping track of people that have come out of treatment experiences. And, you know, it's it's probably one of the most vulnerable steps that they take because they're testing whether or not they can, you know, do the right thing when they have urges, testing whether or not they can do the right thing when it comes to managing and organizing their own life. Um, and you're kind of watching the supervision of it. And it everything from like house schedules and who's cleaning up after the dishes and who's making dinner tonight, and where do we go right now, what are we doing this weekend? There's just the logistical piece of what makes a good program work is pretty complicated. I don't think people understand it. And a lot of times what what I do as a consultant with parents and families is I'm like, this is how this works. They don't understand anything about programming at all. And they don't understand the complexities of it. Some of the nuances of it is like this is a time when we actually don't want you to be involved. We want this person to flounder a bit or to fail a little or to kind of experience you not being the safety net in this situation, and just the the nuance of it in general can be pretty complicated and it's a sophisticated thing. What I what I want to ask is if you had, you know, let's just pretend you've got somebody in front of you, and you probably have this all the time, but somebody doesn't know anything about how to operate that kind of world, and they're like, How does this work? And they gave you that question. What in short order would you say to them to make them understand?
SPEAKER_02:Well, I appreciate you acknowledging that. I think the transitional living level of care, what you could define as aftercare or community-based programs in the non-existent hierarchy of different levels of care, can sometimes be can an after an afterthought. Aftercare is an afterthought. But I'm so passionate about that level of care, because that's really where the rubber hits the road. Like you've left, perhaps if you were in a hospital situation or a residential treatment situation, and then you're taking that next step, um, coming back into the community in a supported environment in a in a program like release recovery, you know, that's when the competing priorities really start coming at you. And the family has their long list that they want to do. The the client has everything they want to make up for for the lost time that they might have had. And suddenly you're facing, you know, uh getting your finances in order, getting your school caught up, figuring out what you want to do for your career. Um, meanwhile, uh learning how to live and making friends. And so um, you know, I think that uh it's a really important level of care, but you have to be so thoughtful about how you integrate all those different parts and what you do is so vital because, like you said, people, you know, they're they're overwhelmed just in general with where they are in life. Like they're they've gone through some kind of mental health or substance use crisis, and they're taking all of that in. And and and at the end of the day, like we're just barely learning how to live. So having really good communication um on the front end and setting up expectations for what's realistic in a in a transitional program is so vital to success and getting everyone on the same page. And so we like to be really collaborative about that. Like, I I definitely, you know, my goal is regardless of what recovery looks like, by the time someone leaves our program, it's their recovery, it's their life, it's their goals. And so from the very beginning, we want to talk about like, what do you want to accomplish in this next period? And so um, I think a lot about the Maslow's hierarchy of needs. It's a pretty basic right framework we all know. And so, you know, you have to start with the bottom of that pyramid with safety, which looks like you know, mental health safety and clinical support. It might be, you know, sobriety monitoring with drug testing, it's having a really safe house with all the procedures and protocols in place. Um, but pretty quickly it becomes about making friends and and rediscovering passions, and then those passions turn into goals. And how do we chunk those goals? Um, and so that's a really fluid process with steps forward and steps back. So it's uh I I just uh I just made it obvious how complicated it is in my answer to that question, because you can't define one single goal, it's a lot of competing goals and it changes every day. But I think the starting point is as close as possible, can we get everybody on the same page about where we are today and where we want to go and get that buy-in and start from there?
SPEAKER_01:So yeah, I think having a good destination and for people to be, you know, even if you even if you can't define it entirely, having a good destination and everybody, like you say, on the same page is is so incredibly important because you know the thing I I I always tell families, I'm sure you've said it before, is life's messy. You know, we we we want to get it some bumpers, you know what I mean, for this process. But life's messy, you know, people don't do everything right and they make mistakes and they have to figure things out and learning process, you know, the learning curve at that stage of care is high. And, you know, the I think part of the reason why the world forgets about it, like you say, is because insurance doesn't cover it. They don't acknowledge that it's a necessary part of the care continuum, uh, and they won't pay for it. They won't pay for the housing piece of it. You can charge, you know, you can charge your bill for the the the PHP IOP clinical side of things, but this housing component and the coaching and the organization and the the supervision and all the stuff that goes into that, it's as important, if not and sometimes more so important than the clinical care model, because that clinical care model is relying on the supported living. Like, what did he do last night? How was it, you know, he came after a hard session, how was entered his seam? Did he eat? Did he go with the guys to to the gym? Has he been isolating in his room? Like that information where the rubber meets the road, where real life is actually happening, pouring itself into a clinical team gives them the information that makes them effective. And it's like any good pro you can't skip that part. And I I think that people don't understand that. When you're when you're talking to families, and sometimes I'm sure you get families that are kind of on the fence, right? They're like, Well, do we need this level of care? And can you just come home or can you just do whatever this is? You know, what do you say to them when there's doubt or they're questioning whether or not that this is a step that needs to be taken?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, that's a great question. I mean, it it can be hard because I really I really don't like scare tactics. I like to come alongside people. And what we have to balance in transitional living or in an aftercare environment is like over here, you've got you know, a return to the crisis, like a relapse, a mental health emergency. Like that's a real possibility when you're at that stage. And then over here, we're holding, you know, 4.0 in college and and find your career. And like we're trying to to bridge all of that in the same environment. Um, and a lot of times families, when they're thinking about transitional living, they have kind of the rose-colored glasses of like things are going great right now, like we just kind of need to keep going the direction. Sounded great, looks great. Yeah, yeah. This is the best he's done in two years or whatever. Um, and so I like to kind of just paint a picture of how many things go into a day and let that family think about how many of those have historically been a challenge, literally from waking up in the morning, like what's your history with getting yourself up in the morning and getting yourself somewhere on time? What about um refilling the medication, making sure you take that medication every day, getting the homework done that you need to get done? Oh, yeah, maybe a little bit of therapy. Oh yeah, maybe hit the gym. And so by the time you've painted that picture of like, we're gonna help them learn how to cook, we're gonna help them learn how to shop, we are going to um maybe do some assessments and figure out like what their vocational strengths are, what's some career stuff. And as you kind of list these things off and help paint a picture of like, wow, there's so much value here if we utilize this program the way it's designed. 24-7 basically, we've designed it around helping the client and the family build skills, and it's an investment that you know can guide you for the rest of your life. Because you're not, you know, a lot of times people are like, Well, we're just trying to separate ourselves from from the the most recent crisis. And really, like I want people to understand, you know, like mental health care, wherever you are on the spectrum of issues that you faced, it's a lifelong thing. And I, at you know, 15 years into my own uh career and process, like I need to know how to navigate, like, when is it time to seek out a little more therapy, or when have I let some of my healthy daily habits or whatever kind of slip? Like, I'm still in that process at this point, so I want families to have a mindset and clients to have a mindset. Like, this is not something you complete and then go back to life. This is a gradual process along a continuum, and the day will come when you're fully self-managing it. Believe me, you'll have years of managing it on your own. But right now, like let us meet you halfway, because there really is so much in a day that goes into supporting somebody, um, even if they have had really good treatment for a couple of months, it's there's more to it.
SPEAKER_01:Well, I think it's it can be a hard concept to land with a person who's in your care or their family that recovery is a lifelong journey. You know, like this is something, you know, you you've had these incidents and it looks like crisis and everything else. And by the time you get to the end of what is ultimately your treatment experiences and you're handling things on your own, you're gonna run into good days and bad. You're gonna want, you're gonna still need to like show up for your job and do the dishes and walk the dog. And and sometimes, you know, it's raining outside and it's cold, and you don't want to go anywhere and you're tired today. And it's like all of life continues to exist. And then you have the added benefit of managing your recovery. And that, even for the most well-adjusted adult, is a lot ultimately. And I think of things in this broader context, I think, is is something that you guys have done and and my, you know, knowing you for the time that I have, kind of communicate that to that to families in a way that I think that they can grasp because I think that people are looking for the answer, right? This experience, and at the end of it, it's gonna be great, you know. But that's ultimately an illusion. When when you've got guys that are passing through the program, and there comes this moment when when it's like, oh, they're getting close, they're gonna transition out, they're they're gonna go live independently, and they start to get excited. And uh, you know, in in the wilderness field, we used to call it we we'd call it smell in the barn. Most accidents happen when you're smelling the barn within a mile of your destination. That's when most people like break a limb, sprain an ankle because they get in a hurry and they stop paying attention. Do you what do you happens with your guys when they get to this moment? And how do you prepare them for that? How do you prepare them for the step? What's the what's the kind of setup that you give them and their families for navigating and supporting what's happening next?
SPEAKER_02:Well, like I said, I I hope that over the time that we've been working with that family, we've been able to position ourselves as like, you know, maybe not a lifelong ally, but certainly an ally that's here with you through this whole this whole phase of this process, whether you're living in our residence or whether you're an alum of the program, whether you left on bad terms, good terms, whatever, like we want you to know that we're here for you. And I think um a lot of times like treatment fatigue can kind of set in and someone that had otherwise been doing well can kind of start regressing um and start putting us back in that like you're the treatment people box, you know, like I'm so ready, I just want to be done with treatment. Um, and that's totally understandable and I totally get that. Um, and at the same time, like I kind of want to shift the conversation. Like, hey, like we're not gonna be here to enforce a rule or or tell you where to be in two weeks. And if you find yourself struggling, like I hope or doing great, you know, I just want you to feel like there's at least one relationship with a safe person at this program that you can call and just say, Hey, I this is what I'm facing today, whether it's a serious thing, whether it's just a little challenge. Like, so to answer your question, like we start shifting the relationship out of a more um kind of power differential where we do have a lot of control over someone's day-to-day to you know, a coming alongside relationship where we're just, you know, we're just a resource in their toolkit of recovery. Um, and I don't know, it's kind of a self-protective mechanism. I think that when a relationship's about to change, we we just kind of start pushing it away a little bit. Um so, you know, I I try to say that very clearly to people again that might not understand like, hey, we have alumni support uh opportunities, we have monthly dinners, we have activities you can be a part of, you can continue to come to these recovery meetings, you can just pick up the phone and call, whether it's the tech that you connected with, whether it's your therapist, you know, please stay in touch. And um, you know, my framework for this, like when you're when you're learning about the levels of care, you're you know, in school or whatever, they kind of show this little like uh trend line of you know, you've got hospital, residential, PHP, IOP, OP. And the way that you know, you go down the list, and then if you mess up, you start back over at the top. And I think about it a lot more. I have this image of like a flower or something in my head where at the center you've got your your program or your kind of your base. Um, and then you go out and draw a pedal out you go out into life and you explore, and then you come back, and then you go out and explore a little, and then you come back. Um, and so we just want to be that secure base, like relationally with the clients that we serve, because that's a lot more realistic to the recovery process. It's not linear, it's much more go out, test the waters, hit a challenge, and then and then plug back in.
SPEAKER_01:Um, I like this analogy you've got going on. That's kind of cool because there's it's also got this center to it, like there's a core. When you keep coming back to the core, you're you're building, you know, you're creating something that's that's at your core and use you can rely on later on. It's like we we can work on this model if we want to.
SPEAKER_02:I would love to. I I I love thinking about stuff like that, and I'll I'll get to talking about it and I see people's eyes kind of glaze over a little bit, but um, I'm I'm right there with you. I'm a nerd, I'm a complete nerd out on you. That's it'd be great. It's about belonging, you know. Like what do what makes me have positive mental health in my life? Do I have do I have a mission? Do I have a community? Do I have a sense of identity? And the reality is like, say you're a 20-year-old kid and you spent six months at release recovery. Um, that is a formative experience. Like that is kind of like studying abroad or going off to college. Like, we just had a this is a major milestone in that person's life. And if you think about had it like, let's just say you had gone and studied abroad for the rest of your life, you're like taking stuff from that, like, oh, I I overcame my fear and I learned a language or I went to a new country. Like, ideally, I want going to treatment to be like that. Like, it's this cool thing that you can pull back on within your identity, the relationships, the memories, and that it kind of feeds you in an ongoing way and is uh, you know, just a positive kind of touchstone. And so when we start feeling shaky, we can go, you know what? I I did that, or I can lean back on that, or I can tap back into that. Like that's the way that I hope that people leave the program is feeling like they can still do that.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, you know the the kind of salient piece that you're talking about, which is you know no mystery here, it's connection. You know, you're you're helping people build, but more importantly, sustain connection. It's like this is what real connection looks like. These are ones we hope that you maintain some with us sustain a connection to this program. And then through that give a you're giving them a model for what connection actually looks like. Because I think that for people who are struggling with their recovery at times you know a lot of their relationship have you know the the their connections have been shattered or the connections were never very strong or they were transactional in nature or these other things they didn't they don't have a really good model for what connection looks like. And so in a any good program really just kind of helps people build the connection. But the other thing that you're doing there because some of these connections need healing you know connected to mom and dad or you know siblings and other family members like those connections they're not going away they they are what they are but they need you know this person changes or they make adapt adaptations to their life and then all of a sudden the equation that exists between them and their family members that equation has to start changing as well mom and dad take on new roles. What is it that you do when you're working with the family about like specifically the family about what does this process look like and how are we going to experience change as a result of it?
SPEAKER_02:You know it's it can be a difficult message and it can be complicated to share with families what what is it that you do in your program to help families kind of get on board with it and and get on the journey as well yeah and I mean this can get uh opinionated relatively quickly the role of family right their impact on clients and you know the different types of parents that we deal with I mean I I think that it's fair to say that it's pretty common that we have parents that are are not ready for the developmental next step of letting their kids kind of launch an individual the adults and they're afraid of that. And so you know there's our best case scenario and then there's like what we face a lot of and so what we face a lot of is parents that say that they're eager for information but really they're kind of eager for control. And so I hopefully want them to realize like there's a parallel process for them. Like your kid or your loved one they're gonna be doing stuff every single day plugging into all types of different types of support and being asked to do things that they're pretty uncomfortable with and we're gonna ask you to do something similar nowhere near as extreme but it'll probably include like challenging some of your viewpoints and meeting some new people and so specifically what that looks like is as soon as we have the first phone call we have a conversation kind of like I've had with you today just explaining like here's the actual goals of this program and let's get on the same page about what those look like and then we have education they're like yeah that sounds good to us. Like yeah we're gonna do all that that sounds great send the token right um and then they get in our case we do these automated text messages with different resources in them like things that we'd like them to read and then they'll have a point of contact in the program usually the primary therapist that's going to follow up with them about um you know did you read those resources? Can we set a goal whether that's you know signing up for some couples therapy with your husband whether that's attending a mutual support group whether that's committing to uh you know exercising twice a week but like what does the recovery process look like for you? And then you know again like this can be challenging work to do with the families because we're not with them every day. We're talking to them you know an hour a week or whatever. But ideally we can start tapping into like so what what's your fear if you start to let go a little bit what if little Johnny like were to struggle a little bit and we and we didn't jump in on that and help them kind of identify like okay this is safe this is feeling like oh I don't know if I can and then these are my boundaries because it's it's okay to have boundaries so you know just getting on the same page about like um what uh what's a something we're not going to cross over and what's something that we can let this person kind of like struggle through a little bit because ultimately like we want to you have you to have a relationship with your with your loved one where they are a functioning young adult and you play a role in that as a parent whether that's financial emotional you know whatever that is like let's define what that looks like um but let's make it developmentally appropriate to where they are so that we can shift this relationship from one of caretaking rescuing you know paying for things being worried you know all of that stuff and shift into a relationship that's more appropriately about supporting each other coming alongside each other still being involved in their life um but giving them the space to make mistakes and and and kind of launch into life which as you know like there's family systems where we're trying to do that at 18 and then there's family systems where they still haven't done that and the the quote unquote kid is 45 years old.
SPEAKER_01:So that's a lot of the work absolutely because they say harder as you get older yeah well and um you know the individuation is a thing um uh it doesn't have to go off like an atomic bomb you know this big rebellious thing but for some of these families it has so the first attempt at like individuation went horribly horribly wrong and um if parents you know credit where credit is due if parents hadn't rescued maybe something terrible even more terrible would have happened um so now you know they're they their amygdala has been hijacked you know they they've got this their experience of young adulthood is crisis and and that's all they know and I think it's really hard to peel a parent you know you're a parent and so am I you know when my I have not faced the same level of crisis thank God that some of our families have but my kids have been in you know hot water or been in a situation or had something medical come up and I know what that worry feels like. I know it's hard to give up I know it won't go away sometimes depending on the level of the situation. So I think one of the things that I I really end up you know kind of sitting with is being compassionate. It's like yeah this is hard this is this is not something that's gonna feel natural to you. And I like this in you know the in in experiential work we used to use the like the the challenge target you know here's the comfort zone and right here is the discomfort zone now here is like red zone you don't want to be there like we're just asking you to be willing to be uncomfortable for a little bit um and test these waters and take it a step at a time. And I you know I think that the the other thing is that people don't recognize it's hard for them to recognize process the medical world has said okay you know you broke your leg you go to the hospital they put a cast on it you know there's some healing period but the professional involvement is the short term kind of thing whereas you on the other hand like you're there standing with that person in their recovery and with families for a fairly long period of time and you're you know and all the experience that you have let's just let's name it what's the what do the lengths of stay look like you know what's an average length of stay uh for your program and for the guys that are going through it like and and you're covering a lot of territory you're not just there in Austin you're getting to look at the territory across the organizational lines what are you seeing on that scale and and for that matter in Yada the Young Adult Transition Association what do you see in terms of scale when you're looking at lengths of stay and the amount of time it takes people to engage in this kind of transitional recovery journey yeah I mean as you know there's a lot of variants there.
SPEAKER_02:I think I like the rule of thumb of about a year of structured programming being a goal um just like post-residential right like after residential yeah post-residential I mean it could include residential but I just mean like at least weekly or more involvement with a structured program in some form. So with the transitional living program uh that's a four month commitment and can be extended and we like it when people will stay six to eight months we tell families like ultimately we're we're starting the day that they leave residential treatment and when like I was talking about earlier by the time they leave this program we want them back enrolled in school or pursuing a career you know basically ready to step out into more or less independence. So that's a pretty long like that's a that's a process to go from day one out of treatment to ready to be fully functional. So we shoot for about six to eight months but then beyond that like I was saying before our most successful clients stay plugged in after they leave so whether that's you know formally like continuing to see their therapist working with their case manager, a recovery coach, committing to a couple of you know coming back on site for an event or a or a recovery meeting or something like that. You know, so kind of titrating down as time goes by um but again like losing this mindset of I'm gonna finish and I think it's fair for families like the family wants to know like what are we how long are we talking here? What are we budgeting here? Like those are very fair questions but let's just assume that we're gonna stay involved at some level whether that's highly structured or less structured for at least a year. I think the science points to that too.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah that's pretty close to the answer I give as well and and when people are talking about budgets I'm like look let's not we want the person to get the right kind of care and as good a care as they can possibly get financial resources unfortunately it's it's just a consideration you have to make if families are dealing with limited resources that that's that's a that's a problem you have to face. It's like but don't do the mistake that many families will make which is to like oh we're just gonna you know spend everything we got on 30 45 days worth of care and then make it up as we go along it's it's like you've got to budget for this year of care. Because if you don't do that you're gonna you're gonna wind up back where you started most likely because that's the outcome for people. Speaking of outcomes when you and you know when we say things like like you know average length of stay, ALOS if we use the acronyms and things like that, we're pointing at an at or not average length of stay, but a successful length of stay. It's like we like for them to be involved for about a year. That's for a person who does the best what are the outcomes that you see from your guys that that put in the time follow the path and then and then make this successful jump to recovery and I I tell people all the time find the right thing to do do it for long enough.
SPEAKER_02:For the guys that are doing it long enough what are you seeing outcomes wise on the other side yeah and this is um I think where substance use and behavioral health definitely has some work to do uh just nationwide the numbers get better outcomes and and defining outcomes. So we we do formalized outcomes follow-ups which can be pretty challenging because ultimately trying to reach clients after they leave which gets increasingly hard. So we have some some data driven outcomes but I'll just speak anecdotally which is um you know there's a relatively small percentage of clients that are problem free like they they come into the program they do great very limited bumps in the road and then they leave and continue to do well um let's just loosely call that like 25% I'd say the middle 50% are going to have some bump in the road whether that's you know a short relapse while they're in the program some kind of regression um or maybe they leave the program and then have a slip and then need to kind of like increase the support. So historically I've worked with young adults so now that um I've been running the program for about nine years you know we've got some some longitudinal anecdotal data of some of these clients we've dealt with and more often than not I see them really reduce the return to a crisis situation. Like it's pretty rare that someone regresses all the way back to where they were before the process started.
SPEAKER_01:Bumps aren't crises.
SPEAKER_02:They have all these protective factors so like okay let's just say you know Johnny moved out three months ago and he had a relapse well you know the friend group is going to be aware and and and jump in or the family gives us a call and we're able to intervene and and that really does matter like early intervention matters. So to me like that's quite successful if somebody has done out of the last two years of their life they used for three weeks of it um and you know maybe missed class a couple of times but then we plugged them back in um that that's kind of a a common scenario with a lot of the clients we deal with like they're not home free but they're in a much safer more supported place than they were before and we can catch things before they get worse. And that last 25% just again anecdotally throwing out these percentages are people that are you know just for whatever reason like they're not a fit for the program. They need a higher level of care they're just really vehemently opposed to making changes and you know they maybe have to go back to another treatment center or maybe they just return to use entirely for a little bit longer like that happens too they had to go out and do a little more research right exactly yeah I hate that it happens yeah I I I think that you're I I those numbers sound pretty right on in terms of what I've seen and experienced on my end of the world as well.
SPEAKER_01:Um but you know if we're defining some of these elements of what make a really good program, you know, flexibility levels of buffer that they can they can feed in or draw back as the person the person's need changes as they go through the recovery journey. You know it's it's not one size fits all. It's we've got to be flexible enough to address people at their need. And sometimes their needs are specific. And so being able to specialize a person's care. And and I think that you know one of the big topics that's been on our mind is is therapeutic alliance. It's like these guys trust you they know you they trust you they'll reach out when they're struggling. That's probably one of the it's one of the biggest things that will save a person from a crisis in my view. Like that's that's something that you guys kind of center on and something I appreciate about appreciate about you specifically in the programs that you're running is that these guys really like know each other and care about each other. And that's a that's an element that you you can't necessarily create it's kind of going to be inside the people that you bring into your organization. So um being able to stand on the definition of recovery that also involves being real human beings is an important piece. If you were going to leave us with anything about the programming and what you find to be important, what would you say?
SPEAKER_02:Hmm well I really like that you brought that up I mean it's it's a little bit hard to quantify but at the end of the day like my job and what the program's job is is to to bring together these complex human experiences of of belonging and connection and and and trauma and struggle and help them meet reliable systems that support care. So the clinic and it's how it's structured the the food and how it's provided like there's so much that goes into here's the human and everything they're going to and here's the systems um that we use to support it. So that's why we throw so many things at a person is we don't we don't know what's going to work for them. But if we address academics social belonging we have you know runs and I I have both staff members and clients that I go on runs with because they just recently decided like this is a cool thing and I want to get and I can show them you know you can get so in you can get so involved with this from a recovery standpoint if you want there's as far as you want to go with this same thing with 12 step involvement you can get as deep in the 12 step world as you want to get um if you want to go back to school and that really lights your fire like all right let's get you in some classes let's figure out what career. So like everybody's gonna have something different but find something please trust us enough that you let yourself dive in to something because I promise like on those hard days those are the things that are going to make you decide like you know what it's not worth it to go backwards. It's not worth it's more important than turning back right about it can be your relationship with your therapist that is that thing it can be not wanting to get a B on your paper. Like we're truly all different um but it needs to be something so that's the hard work we try to do is helping someone figure out like what is that thing that's going to mean it for you. And so we've designed a culture and a and and have a lot of things in place that our that our staff um can bring that type of vibe to the work and make it not feel transactional and not feel you know clinical for lack of a better word. Right and make it about that connection so um so yeah it's a little bit uh it's a little bit vague and esoteric but like that that's the recovery process like it's it can't be perfectly defined and it's not linear.
SPEAKER_01:But um it's hard to it's hard to quantify vibe you know the vibes man Nico man I really appreciate you jumping on the show with me today. It's been a real pleasure to see you and talk to you uh uh I'll be back out your way in Texas and hanging out in Austin and we'll get to do some time together I'm sure of it but uh I'm glad that Mr.
SPEAKER_02:Nico Dorn uh was on our show today Nico keep up the good work man we'll see you soon thanks Todd I doubt I'll convince you to come run the Austin marathon with us maybe I'll watch I'll be a supporter promise thank you we'll see you soon
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